Just curious
- Thread starter F9DXER
- Start date
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Cracked brake carriers during my first annual. Knew some things were out of whack but that one was a straight up surprise. Royal pain to replace.
Oh, and recently (year two so it may not count but whatever) having my starter, ammeter shunt and both solenoids eat themselves at the same time. That was complete with a spark and magic smoke!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
First year: the first annual took way longer than it should have and cost way too much. There was only one shop on the field and it was staffed by younger guys who were unfamiliar with tube and fabric planes and the myriad STCs that were on my plane. Unfortunately, I paid to educate them.
Subsequent years: my flying tapered off because I had checked off the list most of the flying that I had envisioned (e.g., trips to far away places, specific fly-ins, mastered certain skills). In retrospect my list should have been a lot longer, but work, family, house, etc distracted me from adding to the list.
Subsequent years: my flying tapered off because I had checked off the list most of the flying that I had envisioned (e.g., trips to far away places, specific fly-ins, mastered certain skills). In retrospect my list should have been a lot longer, but work, family, house, etc distracted me from adding to the list.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
1.) First annual, $10k. I had a really good shop (I've continued to used them since 2005), but different shops have different pet peeves. That and I had items fixed that were not required for airworthiness but, I wanted them repaired. I had no idea how much aircraft parts cost before that annual.
Beyond annual
2.) How much is spent on fuel (io520). You are filling pages on you credit card bill faster than your log book.
3.) What dorks your friend are:
~~ My friend suggested we take the plane to lunch. I'm going to spend north of $300 RT on fuel. When the lunch bill came he itemized how much I owed for lunch. Pissed me off so bad I bought fuel before heading for home. "You get this one, I'll fill it up when we get back." Funny, he never asked to go again.
~~ Another friend wanted to fly out for breakfast. "Okay, meet me at the airport at 8:00am on Saturday." Got up early so I could fuel up before he got there. 8:45 rolls around, no friend in sight, I called him; "Oh, I decided to sleep in today."
~~ A simi-experienced pilot friend was riding with me when the Cessna ahead didn't clear the runway (It's always a Cessna) and tower sent me around. I always leave the gear down on a go-around (SE aircraft). On downwind I looked and the gear was up. Who put the gear up? "Oh, I thought I'd help out."
~~St John's AZ in September, every tank is full plus luggage for 2, 3 nights. Field elevation 6,000', it's 100 degrees, DA is off the chart. And who the F put that house on the end of the runway. I lower some flaps and lean the engine a little for takeoff. My pax has been a PPL for over 10 years. As I take the runway I scan the panel. Why are my flaps up? "Oh, when we hit flying speed I'll lower the flaps and we'll JUMP into the air. You'll see." He almost had to take Greyhound home.
Doesn't take long before you start making a list of who NEVER gets in your airplane again.
Beyond annual
2.) How much is spent on fuel (io520). You are filling pages on you credit card bill faster than your log book.
3.) What dorks your friend are:
~~ My friend suggested we take the plane to lunch. I'm going to spend north of $300 RT on fuel. When the lunch bill came he itemized how much I owed for lunch. Pissed me off so bad I bought fuel before heading for home. "You get this one, I'll fill it up when we get back." Funny, he never asked to go again.
~~ Another friend wanted to fly out for breakfast. "Okay, meet me at the airport at 8:00am on Saturday." Got up early so I could fuel up before he got there. 8:45 rolls around, no friend in sight, I called him; "Oh, I decided to sleep in today."
~~ A simi-experienced pilot friend was riding with me when the Cessna ahead didn't clear the runway (It's always a Cessna) and tower sent me around. I always leave the gear down on a go-around (SE aircraft). On downwind I looked and the gear was up. Who put the gear up? "Oh, I thought I'd help out."
~~St John's AZ in September, every tank is full plus luggage for 2, 3 nights. Field elevation 6,000', it's 100 degrees, DA is off the chart. And who the F put that house on the end of the runway. I lower some flaps and lean the engine a little for takeoff. My pax has been a PPL for over 10 years. As I take the runway I scan the panel. Why are my flaps up? "Oh, when we hit flying speed I'll lower the flaps and we'll JUMP into the air. You'll see." He almost had to take Greyhound home.
Doesn't take long before you start making a list of who NEVER gets in your airplane again.
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fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
Lot of good things about owning an aircraft.
- No rental schedule to meet. My wife and I went to breakfast at Big Bear. After breakfast she says she's not ready to go home. We headed to Las Vegas and stayed 5 or 6 hours. We were back home in time to feed the dogs.
- The wife asked to take her horse back riding friend to lunch in the plane. Three times work called her friend in and we went by ourself, I didn't care. After the 3rd time I asked what her friend did for a living that she gets called to work on Saturday and Sunday. I s8it you not... "She's a waitress at Hooters."
- The
man cavehangar / airport lifestyle can't be beat. Typically on my days off I'm at the hangar 9 to 6. Fridge, table chairs, recliner, microwave, internet access, heater, AC and a 60" TV. I "work from hangar" sometimes. Forgot to turn the camera off on a zoom call once. "Frank, is that an airplane behind you?" - A friend invited me to another persons hangar BBQ. I don't know the guy, are you sure it's okay? "If you're a pilot, you're welcome." We golf cart over to his hangar, where he stores his buffed out P-51. "Nice to meet you Frank, feel free to climb up and sit in the '51.
- You do find out some of your "airport friends" have a butt load of money. A monthly breakfast run at my airport, 5 to 10 planes go, often two pilots per plane. My casual friend has a 182 and wants me to ride with him, he seems like a knowledgeable pilot, owns a small construction company. We jump in his 12 year old pick-up, he drives right past his hangar. Isn't that your hangar? "I bought a second plane." Opens the door and there sits a brand new Pilatus. I had no idea.
- Organized multi-day fly-in's with airplane owner friends you see once a year. Bryce Canyon UT, Columbia CA, Santa Fe NM, Natchitoches LA, Bartlesville OK, Branson (never again), Black Hills SD, Mustang Beach, TX, Las Vegas NV, ... Great times!
- Places to go you'd never go to in a car. Death Valley for brunch in the winter. I would never drive there. Hearst Castle decorated for Christmas. Lone Pine or Bishop CA, I was always passing through heading for Mammoth or Reno. Drop in for the day, neat little towns with things to see and good food. I could name 100 stops like that for a day trip. Coast in the summer, desert in the winter.
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Murdoughnut
Well sized member
I just want to salute your perfect choice of a GIF for that story.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
I've heard some horror stories recently on annuals and engine swaps. Our club does its own MX, and the average annual seems to be a six-week deal these days - mostly because of difficulty getting parts. I've heard of engine overhauls taking a year or more.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
In 2018 I waited 6 weeks for a factory rebuilt Continental io520. Didn't have one on the shelf, had to build it.
My friend needed a factory rebuilt Lycoming 540 last year, took 10 months.
pnwchief22
Well-Known Member
Parts availability and the inflation factor with TCM. Oh and the component shop … giving unrealistic completion timelines; hey we’ll have it out by October xx “At the latest” and then no phone call when the date comes around to let me know it isn’t ready.
I would murder in all the above scenarios.
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
My A&P and I do all the 50’s, 100’s, and annuals on my fleet of 9 planes. We usually grab a bird each and start going thru the work. Once you have done a few annuals and you’ve been doing the 100’s leading up to them, there shouldn’t be very many surprises, at least not ones that run over a grand or 2.
it’s my 8th year of wrenching. Year 1 I outsourced all the work and coughed up thousands. Year 2-3 I start wrenching with a guy and lost money breaking everything I touched. Year 4-5 I found an A&P I worked with but found out in year 5 he was a remove and replace guy instead of a repair guy so I was spending thousands more than I needed too. Year 6,7 and now 8, I’ve been working with a overhaul it andreturn it to service guy.
the difference in savings is to the tune of $400,000 extra in my pocket. It’s not simply saving money on the parts, it’s getting planes back in the air faster. Planes don’t make money sitting. I also got better at planning and stocking parts in house. In my first few years I would just order as it broke. Now I typically have $40k to $70k worth of parts inventory ready to go. If you own an airplane and want to save money, find a guy that doesn’t replace parts easily. Find a guy that knows how to repair the part. Go get a job part time wrenching at a flight school. I would offer to do it for free. The money you save by what they are teaching you will save you 10’s of thousands in repairs over the course of owning your airplane. You will soon knowwhy crap breaks, and how to fix it.
it’s my 8th year of wrenching. Year 1 I outsourced all the work and coughed up thousands. Year 2-3 I start wrenching with a guy and lost money breaking everything I touched. Year 4-5 I found an A&P I worked with but found out in year 5 he was a remove and replace guy instead of a repair guy so I was spending thousands more than I needed too. Year 6,7 and now 8, I’ve been working with a overhaul it andreturn it to service guy.
the difference in savings is to the tune of $400,000 extra in my pocket. It’s not simply saving money on the parts, it’s getting planes back in the air faster. Planes don’t make money sitting. I also got better at planning and stocking parts in house. In my first few years I would just order as it broke. Now I typically have $40k to $70k worth of parts inventory ready to go. If you own an airplane and want to save money, find a guy that doesn’t replace parts easily. Find a guy that knows how to repair the part. Go get a job part time wrenching at a flight school. I would offer to do it for free. The money you save by what they are teaching you will save you 10’s of thousands in repairs over the course of owning your airplane. You will soon knowwhy crap breaks, and how to fix it.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
You don't happen to have an O-320-E2A sitting around do you? Which brings me to my next question. How far over TBO have you taken your
O-320's? I just bought a 75 PA28-140 for 35K. Nice in and out and a WAAS 430. Engine is at 2200. I know the previous owner took pretty good care of it and they have been doing oil changes every 50 hours, checking the filter, and the oil analysis comes back OK. The IA who has done the last 5 annuals say keep on running it until you see an issue. It has flown regularly about 15 hours/mo. I was going to pull the engine ASAP but after hearing how hard it is to get an overhaul decided to let it ride. Day VFR only over flat land in eastern WA. I'd ask you about the wing spar AD but I think you're a 172 guy.
O-320's? I just bought a 75 PA28-140 for 35K. Nice in and out and a WAAS 430. Engine is at 2200. I know the previous owner took pretty good care of it and they have been doing oil changes every 50 hours, checking the filter, and the oil analysis comes back OK. The IA who has done the last 5 annuals say keep on running it until you see an issue. It has flown regularly about 15 hours/mo. I was going to pull the engine ASAP but after hearing how hard it is to get an overhaul decided to let it ride. Day VFR only over flat land in eastern WA. I'd ask you about the wing spar AD but I think you're a 172 guy.
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
Hi Don! Hope retirement is treating you well. I do have 1 piper in the fleet. I just installed an O-320-E3D with a upgraded 160HP RAM STC in it.
With reference to your question, I typically would buy planes near or above TBO. The reason for this is I get the plane at the lowest cost, but just as importantly, I get to install the engine myself and know the exact history of it. I know that the critical break in procedure was followed to the T.
There were two airplanes (O-320-E2D's) I bought that I did not do this procedure too. The first one only made it to 1800 hours and began fretting down the middle without notice. I caught it while doing a random 50 hour service to it. I immediately pulled it offline and sent it out for overhaul. Because I've given my engine guy 6 engines to overhaul in 16 months, he got that engine back to me in 3 weeks as a favor.
The second 320-E2D I bought with 600 hours on it had to have a top overhaul at 1300 hours. Its starting to show signs that it won't make it to TBO.
I have 2 birds with D2J's motors in them that I installed last year. One now has 1900 hours on it. and the other just passed 1500. Both engines haven't given me any problems. The common theme I am seeing with my birds is when I do the install and break in, they make it to TBO with signs of healthy life left to give. My plan is to take them both past TBO to 2500 hours them swap them out. Because I'm doing this, I'm going to be doing compression checks every 50 hours instead of every 100. I'll have to keep a much closer eye on them. They both typically burn 1 quart for every hour in the air. If oil burn starts to go up, that could be an indication the end is near.
Having said all that, my side gig has become buying them beat up and used, refurbishing them, and selling them. In doing so, I have seen some scary stuff out there. There was a flight school in NJ that was running a O-360-L2A with 3800 SMOH. He had the plane listed for sale for a good price which caught my attention but when I heard the time on the motor, I wasn't willing to risk my CFI's flying it back across the country with the amount of liability involved with that. The guy told me "These engines are tanks, they will easily go 4000-5000 hours". These guys are sticking unsuspecting CFI's and students in them.
I do all of the above because I'm sticking instructors and students in the planes. If it was my own bird, my appetite for risk would be different. THe likely hood of the thing quitting is low if all the facts line up. In your case, the facts line up where taking it past tbo is worth it IMHO. As long as theres no metal coming out of it, you do oil changes every 50, check compressions every 50, you're not flying it over hostile terrain, and its not serving in a commercial capacity, I would keep the engine running if it were me.
If the plane was in socal, I'd even offer to help you with the overhaul in my hangar. If you're interested, it may be worth giving my guy a call to see what wait times are looking like for an overhaul with him. What I've been doing lately is buying used cores for $5-10K and having him build out the engines so that when my comes time due, I just swap it right out and its flying 3 days later.
Last year I paid $16,700 for a E2D, but thats not including the magnetos. starter, alternator, oil cooler overhaul, or any accessories. I have a wholesale account with aircraftspruce,vendors so I get anywhere from 5-10% off parts and free shipping and I install those myself. The O-320-E2D I just installed a few months ago I had to cough up $18,500 with the same scenario. Prices went up its no secret. But, the good news is they have stopped going up and parts are now becoming available again.
With reference to your question, I typically would buy planes near or above TBO. The reason for this is I get the plane at the lowest cost, but just as importantly, I get to install the engine myself and know the exact history of it. I know that the critical break in procedure was followed to the T.
There were two airplanes (O-320-E2D's) I bought that I did not do this procedure too. The first one only made it to 1800 hours and began fretting down the middle without notice. I caught it while doing a random 50 hour service to it. I immediately pulled it offline and sent it out for overhaul. Because I've given my engine guy 6 engines to overhaul in 16 months, he got that engine back to me in 3 weeks as a favor.
The second 320-E2D I bought with 600 hours on it had to have a top overhaul at 1300 hours. Its starting to show signs that it won't make it to TBO.
I have 2 birds with D2J's motors in them that I installed last year. One now has 1900 hours on it. and the other just passed 1500. Both engines haven't given me any problems. The common theme I am seeing with my birds is when I do the install and break in, they make it to TBO with signs of healthy life left to give. My plan is to take them both past TBO to 2500 hours them swap them out. Because I'm doing this, I'm going to be doing compression checks every 50 hours instead of every 100. I'll have to keep a much closer eye on them. They both typically burn 1 quart for every hour in the air. If oil burn starts to go up, that could be an indication the end is near.
Having said all that, my side gig has become buying them beat up and used, refurbishing them, and selling them. In doing so, I have seen some scary stuff out there. There was a flight school in NJ that was running a O-360-L2A with 3800 SMOH. He had the plane listed for sale for a good price which caught my attention but when I heard the time on the motor, I wasn't willing to risk my CFI's flying it back across the country with the amount of liability involved with that. The guy told me "These engines are tanks, they will easily go 4000-5000 hours". These guys are sticking unsuspecting CFI's and students in them.
I do all of the above because I'm sticking instructors and students in the planes. If it was my own bird, my appetite for risk would be different. THe likely hood of the thing quitting is low if all the facts line up. In your case, the facts line up where taking it past tbo is worth it IMHO. As long as theres no metal coming out of it, you do oil changes every 50, check compressions every 50, you're not flying it over hostile terrain, and its not serving in a commercial capacity, I would keep the engine running if it were me.
If the plane was in socal, I'd even offer to help you with the overhaul in my hangar. If you're interested, it may be worth giving my guy a call to see what wait times are looking like for an overhaul with him. What I've been doing lately is buying used cores for $5-10K and having him build out the engines so that when my comes time due, I just swap it right out and its flying 3 days later.
Last year I paid $16,700 for a E2D, but thats not including the magnetos. starter, alternator, oil cooler overhaul, or any accessories. I have a wholesale account with aircraftspruce,vendors so I get anywhere from 5-10% off parts and free shipping and I install those myself. The O-320-E2D I just installed a few months ago I had to cough up $18,500 with the same scenario. Prices went up its no secret. But, the good news is they have stopped going up and parts are now becoming available again.
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
new cylinders, 22K 8 to 10 weeks.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
I would say the biggest surprise really wasn't, just a series of minor disappointments.
1) Most owners couldn't give 2 flying effs about paperwork. As long as the A&P scribbled something half way legible in the logbook, then you are good to go, and that's not even related to if the problem was fixed, addressed or even looked at.
A good example of this is STCs & AFMSes. Any plane that has been around any length of time is probably going to have at least one. You need to make sure this paperwork is TIGHT because getting replacements can range from trivial to impossible. A copy of someone else's is typically not acceptable. I wouldn't do a deal on an airplane unless everything installed under an STC has paperwork present and accounted for.
2) Even a "turnkey" airplane is going to cost you a minimum of 10-15% of the purchase price (with a minimum of about 10k) to get it the way you want it, and that doesn't include upgrades. This include cleaning, replacing broken, but ignored stuff, addressing items that SHOULD be done, but weren't, etc.
A good example is gear rigging in a Bonanza. Simple system, but the person doing it needs to know WTF they're doing. Changing out the rod ends while they're doing it is a good idea because a broken one is a bad deal. Prolly 2k or so to run through the whole system, but worth it.
3) The perennial crisis in GA. Bad world events (9/11, Dotcom, recessions, various wars, etc) seem to have a disproportional affect on GA, and COVID was no exception. Between supply chains, parts, and labor, and shops closing up and old dudes retiring, there seems to be a convergence of issues really jacking things up and prices are going into orbit. MX is starting to be a real issue. My old shop, in the course of 10 years, went from "yea, bring it in, we're waiting for you" to "here's your invoice for the annual, and we need to get you on the calendar for next near".
There's a difference between "crap, this is kinda expensive, but at least Shem at the shop can get me in to fix that injector leak tomorrow" and "Yea, we're booked up for six months, and no, we can't spare anyone to give you an O2 fill".
This doesn't include perennial problems meant to increase contributions to alphabet groups. Mode C, ADS-B, 100LL...these make good headlines, but in the end are, or will become, nothing burgers.
4) Watch the parts issues. Aircraft with single source, fussy parts can be a problem. Avoid if possible.
I sold my airplane last year because someone waved a bunch of money at me. I miss it, but I don't miss the hassle that was ever increasing. That said, I watch friends with boats and horses go through the same kind of things, and they cost more money, if you can believe it.
1) Most owners couldn't give 2 flying effs about paperwork. As long as the A&P scribbled something half way legible in the logbook, then you are good to go, and that's not even related to if the problem was fixed, addressed or even looked at.
A good example of this is STCs & AFMSes. Any plane that has been around any length of time is probably going to have at least one. You need to make sure this paperwork is TIGHT because getting replacements can range from trivial to impossible. A copy of someone else's is typically not acceptable. I wouldn't do a deal on an airplane unless everything installed under an STC has paperwork present and accounted for.
2) Even a "turnkey" airplane is going to cost you a minimum of 10-15% of the purchase price (with a minimum of about 10k) to get it the way you want it, and that doesn't include upgrades. This include cleaning, replacing broken, but ignored stuff, addressing items that SHOULD be done, but weren't, etc.
A good example is gear rigging in a Bonanza. Simple system, but the person doing it needs to know WTF they're doing. Changing out the rod ends while they're doing it is a good idea because a broken one is a bad deal. Prolly 2k or so to run through the whole system, but worth it.
3) The perennial crisis in GA. Bad world events (9/11, Dotcom, recessions, various wars, etc) seem to have a disproportional affect on GA, and COVID was no exception. Between supply chains, parts, and labor, and shops closing up and old dudes retiring, there seems to be a convergence of issues really jacking things up and prices are going into orbit. MX is starting to be a real issue. My old shop, in the course of 10 years, went from "yea, bring it in, we're waiting for you" to "here's your invoice for the annual, and we need to get you on the calendar for next near".
There's a difference between "crap, this is kinda expensive, but at least Shem at the shop can get me in to fix that injector leak tomorrow" and "Yea, we're booked up for six months, and no, we can't spare anyone to give you an O2 fill".
This doesn't include perennial problems meant to increase contributions to alphabet groups. Mode C, ADS-B, 100LL...these make good headlines, but in the end are, or will become, nothing burgers.
4) Watch the parts issues. Aircraft with single source, fussy parts can be a problem. Avoid if possible.
I sold my airplane last year because someone waved a bunch of money at me. I miss it, but I don't miss the hassle that was ever increasing. That said, I watch friends with boats and horses go through the same kind of things, and they cost more money, if you can believe it.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the detailed response. Sorry I missed it until just now.
I just saw new millennium jugs at $1400 each from aircraft spruce, which doesn't seem awful. Also, you don't mention that you do oil analysis? I'm doing all the other stuff you mention as far as keeping an eye on the engine but feel like oil analysis is the best way to catch a problem before it starts making metal.
I'm keeping my eyes open for an engine if something comes along. I appreciate the offer of talking to your engine guy. Will track you down after the holidays. I'm back in San Clemente until mid-Feb.
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DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
I had sold my previous plane (Cherokee 180) maybe 5 years ago after only flying it 6 hours between annuals. Pathetic. But back then I could fly for free on the airlines and didn't really need it much to go anywhere. Being retired now from a cargo airline, I can't fly for free anymore, and I just bought a commercial building that's half residence in a small town that's a 4 hour drive. Maybe 1+15 in a Cherokee. I'll be going back and fourth a lot in the future so I see a use for the plane and also could use it for IFR training some. Will be fun to give rides to kids, too.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Honestly, I think GA is in a bad place, and I don't mean that to just ring that tired bell.
I've been involved in GA since 1987, and have seen it wax and wane. Back then everyone thought the problems would just go away, and it'd be 1976 all over again. Everyone thought the next crisis would kill it, mode C requirements, ADS-B, 100LL etc etc.
Those minor problems aside, there's a bad confluence of problems coming down the hill.
I've been involved in GA since 1987, and have seen it wax and wane. Back then everyone thought the problems would just go away, and it'd be 1976 all over again. Everyone thought the next crisis would kill it, mode C requirements, ADS-B, 100LL etc etc.
Those minor problems aside, there's a bad confluence of problems coming down the hill.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
I am cautiously optimistic about the new unleaded fuel getting into distribution and getting the STCs out for it. I think that might help some.
Which problems are you referring to?
