I learned about aviation from... TMAAT...

I always flip for the last leg if there's an odd number of legs in a trip. So far I've lost the last 3 out of 4, might need to check my coin...

Normally I show up with a plan on how to divide flying and ask the FO if they're good with that. It usually involves doing two at a time each so they don't only get to land in ATL, but some guys hate that and don't mind the monotony so I always ask.

If the first words out of the FOs mouth were to tell me what he was flying, I might have to resort to the "I think we're starting this trip off on the wrong foot, how about you go back up the jetway, come back down, and we try it again?". Never had to use it but one of my mentors said it was very effective once back in his RJ days during the lost decade when an FO introduced himself as "my name is Mike, I'm a former Marine, and I don't take • from anyone..."
 
Normally I show up with a plan on how to divide flying and ask the FO if they're good with that. It usually involves doing two at a time each so they don't only get to land in ATL, but some guys hate that and don't mind the monotony so I always ask.
This is exactly how I approached it.
 
The captain crashed I think. The FO had terrible CRM. He was being snarky and downplayed the low visibility from smoke going into TRK. Which I frankly find terrifying. He didn't help the CA at all. Some are blaming him for the crash since he deployed the speedbrakes without telling the CA at a critical moment right before loss of control. That entire episode is a textbook how not to CRM.

The thing is. The captain could have always diverted to RNO and sorted out the extremely difficult to work with FO through management later. Part of being a good captain and being a good mentor is also knowing when to put your foot down and stop bad behavior. My particular episode was a bit of a surprise and caught me off guard since everyone else I have flown with since my upgrade has been better than me. Granted the bar is set pretty low (I kid) but I have zero gripes about my coworkers where I am employed.
Missing the point. Don’t leave any doubt of who is ultimately in charge of this aircraft.
 
Missing the point. Don’t leave any doubt of who is ultimately in charge of this aircraft.


THIS



Just had CQ last month, and on day 1 the instructor kinda hammered that while we are all about teamwork, there is only ONE pilot in command.

I've seen before where I had to put on CA pants on, and the problematic type A F/Os answer was "we are supposed to be a team here." Oh we are - but there is one Capt here, not two - which is ultimately what the problem was at this moment.
 
Missing the point. Don’t leave any doubt of who is ultimately in charge of this aircraft.

Bruh. You quoted me saying this: Part of being a good captain and being a good mentor is also knowing when to put your foot down and stop bad behavior.
 
I love an FO gripe fest as much as the next captain but I think dealing with flight deck interpersonal issues is one of the areas traditional training programs do a decent job preparing for captaincy. I just went through my third long term training as a captain, and first time as a widebody-ish captain. I think one of the areas a mentorship program can be most beneficial is giving insight into the other workgroups that you basically become a manager of as captain.

As the ultimate authority, we win pretty much every battle with other employee groups unless it is completely out of line. That being said, in my experience, the amount of times I’ve had to exercise that is minuscule. We have about 10 seconds to build a working relationship with FAs, agents, dispatchers, etc. Impressions are typically not made during a manual mandated briefing, but when we have to drag our bags through the galley 4 min prior to boarding and the FAs are trying to make sure they have all the catering they need and are prepping for pax. Understanding the job of others we work with, and how to tailor your actions in a way that makes their job easier is how you get buy in to your leadership. It’s more an art than science, but I’m continually amazed on positive feedback I get from agents/FAs for things I do that seem a basic part of being a captain.

A recent trip I was on, we took the van with our cabin crew, a different one than came in with us. One of them brought her bf who was nonreving back with us. I briefly checked the app on the way to the airport and saw we would have some seats open. About 15 prior to departure the agent sticks her head in and said they are almost ready and ask if we are good to close and I said yes. I then remembered about her bf being onboard so I sauntered back to the 2 door to ask the lead if he had gotten on before we close the door. She said yes and you think I would have been handing her gold bars. The other FA even called up to thank me for checking. This seemed like basic stuff to me and I was kind of embarrassed I wasn’t more proactive about it, but the response told me that must have been beyond what most captains do. Now did that actually do anything other than make them feel good? Probably not. But don’t you want your crew to have buy in that you care about them on a flight where everything does hit the fan? Understanding what’s important to those around you and using your authority to show you care and have their back makes life as a Captain much easier.

I think some good discussion questions with new captains would have to do with interacting with other non pilot employees.

“When you step on the plane and see the FAs, what’s the first thing you say?”

“You are late getting to the plane and it’s 40 min prior to departure and you want more fuel that dispatch has given you, what do you do? What if you are weight restricted at a high altitude airport?”

“The gate agent comes down 15 prior days they are ready to close early and there are pax in the window waving at you to get on. What do you say?”

I think questions like this are a good way to start discussions about the actual job roles of other departments and what they care about. Interpersonal skills can make all the difference in this job, and are typically lacking in most upgrade training programs
 
“The gate agent comes down 15 prior days they are ready to close early and there are pax in the window waving at you to get on. What do you say?”





Our shop has made a big deal about this, and we as CAs have been told that business decisions (which includes pax and connections) are not our call, not in the purview of the PIC judgement for stopping the operation.

So unfortunately, the answer at our shop is “we are leaving.”



Though I will say, at our shop it’s a 10 minute cutoff for a missing pax. The gate agents will wait up to D-10 before closing the flight.


Sector Sup will delay certain flights, usually once/daily LA to Mexico flights in order to wait for slightly delayed inbound connectors from SEA, SFO, and PDX. But that’s about it.
 
I love an FO gripe fest as much as the next captain but I think dealing with flight deck interpersonal issues is one of the areas traditional training programs do a decent job preparing for captaincy. I just went through my third long term training as a captain, and first time as a widebody-ish captain. I think one of the areas a mentorship program can be most beneficial is giving insight into the other workgroups that you basically become a manager of as captain.

As the ultimate authority, we win pretty much every battle with other employee groups unless it is completely out of line. That being said, in my experience, the amount of times I’ve had to exercise that is minuscule. We have about 10 seconds to build a working relationship with FAs, agents, dispatchers, etc. Impressions are typically not made during a manual mandated briefing, but when we have to drag our bags through the galley 4 min prior to boarding and the FAs are trying to make sure they have all the catering they need and are prepping for pax. Understanding the job of others we work with, and how to tailor your actions in a way that makes their job easier is how you get buy in to your leadership. It’s more an art than science, but I’m continually amazed on positive feedback I get from agents/FAs for things I do that seem a basic part of being a captain.

A recent trip I was on, we took the van with our cabin crew, a different one than came in with us. One of them brought her bf who was nonreving back with us. I briefly checked the app on the way to the airport and saw we would have some seats open. About 15 prior to departure the agent sticks her head in and said they are almost ready and ask if we are good to close and I said yes. I then remembered about her bf being onboard so I sauntered back to the 2 door to ask the lead if he had gotten on before we close the door. She said yes and you think I would have been handing her gold bars. The other FA even called up to thank me for checking. This seemed like basic stuff to me and I was kind of embarrassed I wasn’t more proactive about it, but the response told me that must have been beyond what most captains do. Now did that actually do anything other than make them feel good? Probably not. But don’t you want your crew to have buy in that you care about them on a flight where everything does hit the fan? Understanding what’s important to those around you and using your authority to show you care and have their back makes life as a Captain much easier.

I think some good discussion questions with new captains would have to do with interacting with other non pilot employees.

“When you step on the plane and see the FAs, what’s the first thing you say?”

“You are late getting to the plane and it’s 40 min prior to departure and you want more fuel that dispatch has given you, what do you do? What if you are weight restricted at a high altitude airport?”

“The gate agent comes down 15 prior days they are ready to close early and there are pax in the window waving at you to get on. What do you say?”

I think questions like this are a good way to start discussions about the actual job roles of other departments and what they care about. Interpersonal skills can make all the difference in this job, and are typically lacking in most upgrade training programs

So much this. Flying the airplane is is easy part of this job. Managing a team can be much more challenging. Not being an ass hat is the best thing you can bring to the flight deck because people are willing to help YOU out l.
 
I love an FO gripe fest as much as the next captain but I think dealing with flight deck interpersonal issues is one of the areas traditional training programs do a decent job preparing for captaincy.


I disagree. If anything, I’m seeing an attitude of “we are equal here.” And muddling the PIC authority.


Reality is, a lotta newhires are CAs who left their job, and now they are FO at this new shop. Some can handle that fine. Others, they can’t. It’s a tough transition for them. You can tell when they are trying to be right seat CAs, and it gets annoying real fast.


I honestly think we ought to spend time in initial and recurrent really diving into what it means to be a team, and what it means that there is one PIC. I would have thought it’s common sense. Apparently it isn’t.
 
“The gate agent comes down 15 prior days they are ready to close early and there are pax in the window waving at you to get on. What do you say?”





Our shop has made a big deal about this, and we as CAs have been told that business decisions (which includes pax and connections) are not our call, not in the purview of the PIC judgement for stopping the operation.

So unfortunately, the answer at our shop is “we are leaving.”



Though I will say, at our shop it’s a 10 minute cutoff for a missing pax. The gate agents will wait up to D-10 before closing the flight.


Sector Sup will delay certain flights, usually once/daily LA to Mexico flights in order to wait for slightly delayed inbound connectors from SEA, SFO, and PDX. But that’s about it.
Easy answer…”I’m going up to the terminal to use the restroom, I’ll try to be back in 20 mins”

I don’t use plastic when porcelain is available.
 
I disagree. If anything, I’m seeing an attitude of “we are equal here.” And muddling the PIC authority.


Reality is, a lotta newhires are CAs who left their job, and now they are FO at this new shop. Some can handle that fine. Others, they can’t. It’s a tough transition for them. You can tell when they are trying to be right seat CAs, and it gets annoying real fast.


I honestly think we ought to spend time in initial and recurrent really diving into what it means to be a team, and what it means that there is one PIC. I would have thought it’s common sense. Apparently it isn’t.

I'm not seeing that at all. Maybe in the one bad experience in a year.
 
I disagree. If anything, I’m seeing an attitude of “we are equal here.” And muddling the PIC authority.


Reality is, a lotta newhires are CAs who left their job, and now they are FO at this new shop. Some can handle that fine. Others, they can’t. It’s a tough transition for them. You can tell when they are trying to be right seat CAs, and it gets annoying real fast.


I honestly think we ought to spend time in initial and recurrent really diving into what it means to be a team, and what it means that there is one PIC. I would have thought it’s common sense. Apparently it isn’t.
This must be an airline dependent thing because I haven’t had that experience. The opposite actually, even after briefing to fly it their way on their leg many FOs seem gun shy asking for different altitudes and deviations when I can tell they are thinking about it. Maybe captains are more micromanaging and difficult here and they have had their head bitten off one to many times.
 
I'm not seeing that at all. Maybe in the one bad experience in a year.

This must be an airline dependent thing because I haven’t had that experience. The opposite actually, even after briefing to fly it their way on their leg many FOs seem gun shy asking for different altitudes and deviations when I can tell they are thinking about it. Maybe captains are more micromanaging and difficult here and they have had their head bitten off one to many times.
Curious. CC is overwhelmed by right seat captains and others are not. I wonder what that’s about.
 
Curious. CC is overwhelmed by right seat captains and others are not. I wonder what that’s about.

Not overwhelmed. Just calling it like I see it. It's not happening daily. But a couple times a year, I definitely see a guy/girl that needs to pegged down from sky high to ground reality.


Example. FO does the walkaround, apparently saw a mechanic outside and told him about the issue, never mentions it to me. I'm fat dumb and happy. Then D-20 mechanic comes aboard and asks me questions, I'm clueless. First I'm hearing this issue. FO "takes over" and has the conversation with the mechanic.


Yeah, I put that as "right seat CA behavior." Any FO with common sense would think to include the CA in a mechanical issue said FO discovered.


I mean... right?



And in 2018 or 19, I already shared my story of an ex-Corpie who just added extra fuel without running it by me first.

Sorry, I was a FO for 11 yrs total. I would have NEVER dreamed of doing these things to the CA. It's anti-CRM, disrespectful IMO.
 
Seriously though, great thread.

I have been an FO for seven years and so except for some experience as a WB IRO observing other FO’s, I don’t really know what other FOs do outside of myself.

In the military, I was the pilot in command for most of my career… most of that time, but not all the time, I out-ranked the copilot. The whole rank structure set an environment that was generally comfortable.

Reading all of your experiences is really helpful for me and I appreciate it.
 
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