FLOSI 3 Arrival chart question

[NovemberEcho]

So on a pilot/controller fb group there seems to be a debate about what the chart says. Now, I know it is saying that only turbojet/turboprop aircraft capable of 250+kts are authorized, but apparently the wording has created a stir and people are saying it can be interpreted as allowing you to do 250+kts below 10k'. How do you read it?

 

[Stone Cold]

The Administrator did not approve 250+ below 10k. It's cut and dry. It is not authorization for it. It's poorly worded, but i would not go above 250 with just that hoping it would be legal.

 

[milleR]

Yes, 250 below 10K is authorized under certain circumstances (I'm thinking military and very heavy aircraft operations).

§91.117 Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

 

[Stone Cold]

Yes, 250 below 10K is authorized under certain circumstances (I'm thinking military and very heavy aircraft operations).

§91.117 Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

I agree, but from the sound of the original question, it seems like people, even if minimum safe airspeed isn't a factor, are reading this as a carte blanche to go above 250 below 10k.

I may be misreading it, though...

 

[NovemberEcho]

I agree, but from the sound of the original question, it seems like people, even if minimum safe airspeed isn't a factor, are reading this as a carte blanche to go above 250 below 10k.

I may be misreading it, though...

No, that seems to be how some of them are interpreting it. I'll have to look to see if the PHLBO arrival says the same thing. Could be why I've had some guys showing 340kts gs at 8000' and I've had to tell them to slow to 250

 

[Cptnchia]

No, that seems to be how some of them are interpreting it. I'll have to look to see if the PHLBO arrival says the same thing. Could be why I've had some guys showing 340kts gs at 8000' and I've had to tell them to slow to 250

Those guys are idiots. It means 250+ knots until below 10K feet, (9,999 feet.)

 

[Stone Cold]

No, that seems to be how some of them are interpreting it. I'll have to look to see if the PHLBO arrival says the same thing. Could be why I've had some guys showing 340kts gs at 8000' and I've had to tell them to slow to 250

That's a violation waiting to happen...

 

[trafficinsight]

The Administrator did not approve 250+ below 10k. It's cut and dry. It is not authorization for it. It's poorly worded, but i would not go above 250 with just that hoping it would be legal.

It's not even poorly worded in my opinion, it's people looking for technicalities where none exist.



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[Jordan93]

I don’t know how one could remotely interpret you can bust 250 below 10 from that chart.

 

[Stone Cold]

It's not even poorly worded in my opinion, it's people looking for technicalities where none exist.



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I think they could have taken any chance of ambiguity out of it with something like "authorized only for aircraft capable of speeds of 250+" or similar.

 

[Jordan93]

Didn’t the charts used to read something like “Applicable for turbojets or turboprops capable of 250 knots or greater”? I agree the wording is kind of goofy in this chart but I find it hard to believe guys would look at this chart and interpret they can bust speed limits.

 

[Roger Roger]

people are saying it can be interpreted as allowing you to do 250+kts below 10k'. How do you read it?

View attachment 42109

 

[milleR]

"Turbojet and turboprop aircraft capable of 250 knots or greater are authorized to conduct this STAR. Keep your speed up above 10K and 250 is expected below. Dash 8's and King Airs, you should be on the RUUTH" is how I read it.

 

[NovemberEcho]

 

[mikecweb]

Facebook groups, especially ones for pilot wives, are generally useless.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Those guys are idiots.

+1

Such naiive people out there, it's pretty sad. Like most rules in aviation, the 250 knots below 10,000 is written in blood.

 

[derg]

I agree, but from the sound of the original question, it seems like people, even if minimum safe airspeed isn't a factor, are reading this as a carte blanche to go above 250 below 10k.

I may be misreading it, though...

I didn't read it as approval for 250+ below 10,000. I presume if you're on the arrival and can only do 235 (Beech 1900), they're not going to have many options on sequencing traffic using speed.

 

[Old Pete]

I agree, but from the sound of the original question, it seems like people, even if minimum safe airspeed isn't a factor, are reading this as a carte blanche to go above 250 below 10k.

I may be misreading it, though...

No, that seems to be how some of them are interpreting it. I'll have to look to see if the PHLBO arrival says the same thing. Could be why I've had some guys showing 340kts gs at 8000' and I've had to tell them to slow to 250

Had a controller say “say airspeed” me: “250”
She: “yeah right”
I can’t find that in pilot/controller glossary, can you tell me what that means?

 

[NovemberEcho]

I didn't read it as approval for 250+ below 10,000. I presume if you're on the arrival and can only do 235 (Beech 1900), they're not going to have many options on sequencing traffic using speed.

The only turboprops allowed on that Arrival are Q400's. Otherwise only jets. Although they don't come here anymore, the Commutair Dash 8 Abc's came on a different route mixed in with the TEB arrivals.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Had a controller say “say airspeed” me: “250”
She: “yeah right”
I can’t find that in pilot/controller glossary, can you tell me what that means?

To be fair, I've had guys showing 20kts faster than everyone else and if they're to be believed they're the only ones going 250 lol