CA smells like alcohol.....

Like others have said, try and get the CA out of the cockpit without ruining his career. I'm not gonna let him fly the plane drunk, but i will do everything i can to keep from making a bad situation worse. If he's showing up in that condition, there could be any number of explanations, and its not my place to play judge, jury, and executioner with someone's career.
 
O&M:

At one major US carrier, the point in time at which a pilot is considered to have been operating the flight (for the purposes of showing up unfit for duty i.e. alcohol/drugs) is the completion of the preflight check.

Consider that.
 
For those that wanted to slam CA. The Chief will support ya but think your a bag all your peers will jump at the chance to roast ya when you step on your crank...and you will step on your crank
 
cmill said:
Like others have said, try and get the CA out of the cockpit without ruining his career. I'm not gonna let him fly the plane drunk, but i will do everything i can to keep from making a bad situation worse. If he's showing up in that condition, there could be any number of explanations, and its not my place to play judge, jury, and executioner with someone's career.
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Yup, more than likely anyone who is willing to put their career at risk because of booze isn't just an irresponsible person who likes to party, they probably are an alcoholic. I used to be like (I presume) O&M and not believe that alcoholism is actually a disease. But then I attended a speech from one of the pilots who was arrested many years back flying for Northwest from Fargo to Minneapolis. That completely changed my outlook.

Don't stress out about it. Unless you knowingly operate the flight with him drunk, you're not going to get in trouble. And if you knew he was drunk, then obviously you are going to do whatever it takes to not operate the flight. But this guy probably isn't a guy who just likes to party. He's got a problem and needs help. Do what you can to get him this help. Its the right thing to do.
 
dasleben said:
So, you're going to take it upon yourself to end his career for him? No thoughts of mitigating circumstances or an actual drinking problem? Just shoot first and ask questions later, right?

You want to give him the opportunity to call out sick, call HIMS, and get into a program if necessary. Calling the company and having him terminated helps no one. You're fine as long as you don't operate the aircraft or allow him to (if he doesn't respond to removing himself, only then should you escalate to the company). Remember also that generally there's a pilot asking you this question on an interview, most likely a captain him or herself. These aren't HR lackeys. They want to know that you won't run off and jeopardize their careers before you know the facts.
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As I see it, he is the one to take it upon himself to end his career...
 
efly said:
As I see it, he is the one to take it upon himself to end his career...
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If he was actually drinking. You don't know that before calling the company and potentially ending his career for him, do you?

Rise zombiethread, rise.
 
efly said:
As I see it, he is the one to take it upon himself to end his career...
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I don't see it that way, really. People cope with things in a wide variety of ways. A guy going through a rough divorce who's losing his house and is going to be unable to pay his car payment is under more stress than merely the stress associated with flying. Add in five or six days of rough scheduling, a competent bar tender closely followed by a series of bad decisions and you could have a guy who would "never in a million years because that's irresponsible" get onto an airplane that he shouldn't. Outside of the "airline" world, if you don't have a company where you can call in sick without proving to the nth degree that you couldn't fly, or find someone to cover for you, this guy could be looking at losing his job or being reprimanded in some way. Hell, at most outfits I've worked for, a missed day means you're taking a pay hit, and if the mortgage is due, and the child support/diaper bill needs paid, the pressure to fly can be extreme. If you're drinking, you're already not fully aware of your faculties and limitations to begin with, it doesn't seem fair to flush a guys career because he's impaired in his judgment. Help, treatment, and shoulder to cry on are typically more effective that a swift kick to the gutter.


BRAINS!
 
Simple, kick him in the nuts hard enough to make him puke. When he does, call out sick for him.

The next few sore days should help remind him to think twice before showing up drunk.

Not that I'm for cheap shots, but putting your career in danger is a low blow, so retaliate in kind.

If he isn't drunk though, watch out for dark parking lots.
 
efly said:
As I see it, he is the one to take it upon himself to end his career...
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Sure, but he has a physiological or psychological problem (more likely than not, if he doesn't have a problem and is just an irresponsible (you know) then I think I'd walk off anyway). And it could reflect adversely on my career.

If he won't leave, I WILL. I will NOT permit an airplane to move with a crew member under the influence.
 
Tell him to call in sick.

If he doesn't want to, I'll gladly do it for him and he can thank me later.

Past that? Not sure what I'd do. He won't be riding with me or I him.
 
ppragman said:
I don't see it that way, really. People cope with things in a wide variety of ways. A guy going through a rough divorce who's losing his house and is going to be unable to pay his car payment is under more stress than merely the stress associated with flying. Add in five or six days of rough scheduling, a competent bar tender closely followed by a series of bad decisions and you could have a guy who would "never in a million years because that's irresponsible" get onto an airplane that he shouldn't. Outside of the "airline" world, if you don't have a company where you can call in sick without proving to the nth degree that you couldn't fly, or find someone to cover for you, this guy could be looking at losing his job or being reprimanded in some way. Hell, at most outfits I've worked for, a missed day means you're taking a pay hit, and if the mortgage is due, and the child support/diaper bill needs paid, the pressure to fly can be extreme. If you're drinking, you're already not fully aware of your faculties and limitations to begin with, it doesn't seem fair to flush a guys career because he's impaired in his judgment. Help, treatment, and shoulder to cry on are typically more effective that a swift kick to the gutter.


BRAINS!
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I guess I should have clarified my post a bit more. I would not go to the company first, I would have a discussion first with him, if I find he is under the influence, and will not call in sick then it will have to be taken to a higher level. Once I feel this person is un fit for flight, it is now a responsibility of mine/ours, to make sure that plane does not take off with that pilot on board, we still have the duty to protect the lives of the passengers and all others that may/could be affected.

While I understand your point, and yes, I think we have all made some poor decisions in our lives, that could have snowballed into another... its how we act after those that really tell who we are, and calling in sick is a start.
 
I see this as a two step process. Your first responsibility is to prevent him/her from making any further progress toward operating the flight. Shut it down the moment you see a problem - hotel lobby, crew van etc. The captain WILL call in sick or you will do it for him. Whatever it takes, get as much distance as possible between him/her and the airplane. You may even want to remove company ID, uniform jackets or whetever to de-identify them as a crewmember. Once the situation has stabilized and the captain has sobered up, you can then address the options with respect to the incident. I would give the captain every opportunity to seek help through company provided programs and self disclosure before I said anything to compromise his/her career. This does not invalidate their responsibility, but as we all know, there are times in each of our lives when we need outside help with various issues. Many careers of fine upstanding pilots have been saved by the considerate and thoughtful assistance of a co-worker. Now if the captain refuses to cooperate with your generous willingness to help, you do have a responsibility to fulfill whatever steps you deem appropriate to protect the passengers we are entrusted to safely transport. It's a tough situation but in the absence of a fully functioning captain, you as the first officer are in charge, even if it is your first day on the job.
 
Calling the company is the absolute LAST resort... I think its a little easier to handle this as a Captain, telling the guy to call in sick if for no other reason that he doesn't look well. If I did call the company, THE LAST RESORT, I wouldn't say anything about alcohol, I would most likely call scheduling and tell them that my first officer is here but looks sick and I am not sure he is in the best shape to fly, and request another fo, anything to get him off with out spilling the beans. If he still resists, what else can I do.
 
O&M said:
But in this scenario, the Captain has already gone on duty; the damage is already done.
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Really? What damage has been done? I re-read the original post, and I didn't see anything about bent metal, dead people, or anyone getting maimed. It seems to me that no damage has been done yet. But, if you do what you want to do, a lot of damage will be done. The company will get a huge black eye in the view of the public, the captain will lose his career, he'll probably never get help for his problem, and even worse, he'll probably just slip further into alcoholism because he's now lost his career and will cling to the bottle even harder as he slips into depression. Your way causes incredible amounts of harm to a lot of people. Him calling in sick harms no one.

O&M said:
If that makes me a "company man," I'm ok with that, because it is the company that signs my paycheck. It's the Captain who is jeopardizing it.
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What you fail to understand is that the company would cringe at your answer just as much as I do. A pilot being pulled from the cockpit for having alcohol in his system is a PR nightmare, and the airlines hate it. Their company name is going to be on CNN, in the newspapers, and on the local news, and not in a good way. Bookings will reduce for a short time, if only by a tiny bit. The company will have to spend around $50,000 to fight the arbitration when the pilot grieves the termination of his employment. The list goes on. The answers that others have given here are what the company wants to hear. They want you to get him off the trip without creating a public ruckus. They want you to refer him to HIMS so he can get some help and come back as a loyal employee (industry-wide, HIMS graduates have proven to be some of the best employees). They do not want you to create a scene by putting them in a situation where they have to get the authorities involved.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Really? What damage has been done? I re-read the original post, and I didn't see anything about bent metal, dead people, or anyone getting maimed. It seems to me that no damage has been done yet. But, if you do what you want to do, a lot of damage will be done. The company will get a huge black eye in the view of the public, the captain will lose his career, he'll probably never get help for his problem, and even worse, he'll probably just slip further into alcoholism because he's now lost his career and will cling to the bottle even harder as he slips into depression. Your way causes incredible amounts of harm to a lot of people. Him calling in sick harms no one.



What you fail to understand is that the company would cringe at your answer just as much as I do. A pilot being pulled from the cockpit for having alcohol in his system is a PR nightmare, and the airlines hate it. Their company name is going to be on CNN, in the newspapers, and on the local news, and not in a good way. Bookings will reduce for a short time, if only by a tiny bit. The company will have to spend around $50,000 to fight the arbitration when the pilot grieves the termination of his employment. The list goes on. The answers that others have given here are what the company wants to hear. They want you to get him off the trip without creating a public ruckus. They want you to refer him to HIMS so he can get some help and come back as a loyal employee (industry-wide, HIMS graduates have proven to be some of the best employees). They do not want you to create a scene by putting them in a situation where they have to get the authorities involved.
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Smart guy right der!
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Really? What damage has been done? I re-read the original post, and I didn't see anything about bent metal, dead people, or anyone getting maimed. It seems to me that no damage has been done yet. But, if you do what you want to do, a lot of damage will be done. The company will get a huge black eye in the view of the public, the captain will lose his career, he'll probably never get help for his problem, and even worse, he'll probably just slip further into alcoholism because he's now lost his career and will cling to the bottle even harder as he slips into depression. Your way causes incredible amounts of harm to a lot of people. Him calling in sick harms no one.



What you fail to understand is that the company would cringe at your answer just as much as I do. A pilot being pulled from the cockpit for having alcohol in his system is a PR nightmare, and the airlines hate it. Their company name is going to be on CNN, in the newspapers, and on the local news, and not in a good way. Bookings will reduce for a short time, if only by a tiny bit. The company will have to spend around $50,000 to fight the arbitration when the pilot grieves the termination of his employment. The list goes on. The answers that others have given here are what the company wants to hear. They want you to get him off the trip without creating a public ruckus. They want you to refer him to HIMS so he can get some help and come back as a loyal employee (industry-wide, HIMS graduates have proven to be some of the best employees). They do not want you to create a scene by putting them in a situation where they have to get the authorities involved.
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This doesn't happen often, so everyone, pay very close attention.

I agree completely, with ATN.
 
There is one thing I'm curious about and that is entry into Canada for someone that does seek the help and is able to keep their certificates and get their medical back.

How are they getting in? They aren't for at least 10 years, so I'm curious as to how the company is obligated at all to keep this pilot employed since they effectively can't work anymore in a normal capacity.
 
I know that Pinnacle just made sure that those pilots didn't fly to Canada. If they had trips on their schedule to Canada, then Scheduling had to modify them.
 
UAL747400 said:
There is one thing I'm curious about and that is entry into Canada for someone that does seek the help and is able to keep their certificates and get their medical back.

How are they getting in? They aren't for at least 10 years, so I'm curious as to how the company is obligated at all to keep this pilot employed since they effectively can't work anymore in a normal capacity.
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you can apply for and receive a temporary work permitt before 10 years is up to be able to travel back and forth for work
 
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