PIC question

[bc2209]

This is a hypothetical question regarding the student being PIC while under an instrument rating instruction flight.

Here is the scenario: Student is under the hood while logging PIC time with a CFII. While being instructed by the CFII to track outbound on a radial the instructor takes the controls and makes a hard right.

The instructor realized they were just about the cross into a restricted area.

Question:

If the airplane did indeed cross into a restricted area and an investigation is done, who is liable for the pilot deviation, if that is the outcome?

This is totally hypothetical but similar to an experience.

Thanks for your time.

 

[TOGA9]

Not an attorney here, but two thoughts on your question. First, who is the designated PIC? You mentioned the student as logging PIC, but who was actually acting as PIC? Second, the FAA has a case history of pursuing the highest certificated pilot in the situation (especially a CFI) even if they are not PIC.

My opinion on this example is the FAA would pursue the pilot who was PIC for the flight. They may also go the 44709 route for any of the pilots, especially the CFI.

 

[gotWXdagain]

There are stories of Airspace busts in Skyhawks and the ATP sitting in the backseat gets run in by the Feds.

But more to the point, they would likely in this case go after the CFII for failure to provide adequate supervision.

 

[CFI A&P]

Not an attorney, but I did sleep in a KOA campground last night...

Doesn't the safety pilot have some responsibility regarding the safe outcome of the flight?

 

[pilotmec]

My bet is CFII gets to talk to FSDO but birth should fill out a NASA form just in case.

But I only slept at a Holiday Inn Express!

 

[bc2209]

My bet is CFII gets to talk to FSDO but birth should fill out a NASA form just in case.

But I only slept at a Holiday Inn Express!

Speaking of NASA forms, how many are you allowed to fill out?

From my beginner understanding, it is that you can fill out an unlimited number of NASA forms but you can only use one NASA form "get out of jail free card" in the event of an incident that is investigated every 5 years?

 

[Patrick]

There are stories of Airspace busts in Skyhawks and the ATP sitting in the backseat gets run in by the Feds.

But more to the point, they would likely in this case go after the CFII for failure to provide adequate supervision.

This.

 

[pilotmec]

Speaking of NASA forms, how many are you allowed to fill out?

From my beginner understanding, it is that you can fill out an unlimited number of NASA forms but you can only use one NASA form "get out of jail free card" in the event of an incident that is investigated every 5 years?

Sounds about right but it should tell you on the form or the website.

 

[pilotmec]

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html


Piece of advice....I had an investigation on a pilot who sent me a copy of his NASA form. DO NOT DO THAT.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Hypothetically speaking, either or both. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the acting PIC's ultimate responsibility means no one else has any.

Your hypothetical sounds like an instrument student - a private pilot who is deemed to know and understand charts and have some situational awareness. The CFII is, of course, an instructor and is responsible for what takes place during a lesson.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

There are stories of Airspace busts in Skyhawks and the ATP sitting in the backseat gets run in by the Feds.

Got even one that can be verified or just the usual BS people make up?

But more to the point, they would likely in this case go after the CFII for failure to provide adequate supervision.

Most likely, but not just the CFII.

 

[djackd]

I have a follow up to this.

Say a pre-solo student on their first flight (no medical yet and thus no certificate) is flying with a CFI and they bust airspace, bend an airplane etc. The CFI obviously gets dinged, but what happens to the student long term? Do they need to report this for insurance carriers? future interviews etc? Will the incident end up in the pilots file at the faa when they do finally get their ticket?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I have a follow up to this.

Say a pre-solo student on their first flight (no medical yet and thus no certificate) is flying with a CFI and they bust airspace, bend an airplane etc. The CFI obviously gets dinged, but what happens to the student long term? Do they need to report this for insurance carriers? future interviews etc? Will the incident end up in the pilots file at the faa when they do finally get their ticket?

The fallacy of the ATP in the back seat being busted just because he's an ATP ignores the reality that these things can be very fact-intensive. Change one apparently small fact, and the responsibility situation can also change.

That said, in the typical pre-solo situation, the student pilot is unlikely to have anything put on his or her record by the FAA. Hard to have a certificate action without a certificate and trying to impose a civil penalty would realistically be too much bother unless the student's conduct was really egregious. And, without a violation, there's nothing to report.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html


Piece of advice....I had an investigation on a pilot who sent me a copy of his NASA form. DO NOT DO THAT.

Huh?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Huh?

The nasa report promises anonymity (with limited exceptions). Don't negate it's benefit by passing it around,be specially to investigators. Now it's a statement they CAN use against you.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

The fallacy of the ATP in the back seat being busted just because he's an ATP ignores the reality that these things can be very fact-intensive. Change one apparently small fact, and the responsibility situation can also change.

That said, in the typical pre-solo situation, the student pilot is unlikely to have anything put on his or her record by the FAA. Hard to have a certificate action without a certificate and trying to impose a civil penalty would realistically be too much bother unless the student's conduct was really egregious. And, without a violation, there's nothing to report.

So a student pilot's certificate is not a "certificate," in terms of that which the FAA can take enforcement action against?

I ask, because while the NTSB's opinions and orders page seems to be giving me a very Microsofty error right now and so I can't look it up, but I seem to remember reading a case involving a pair of student pilots, flying together, doing something careless (etc.) and the Federales violated both of them, resulting in revocation of their student certificates. NTSB: "We affirm." If and when the O&O website comes back up, I'll try to find the specific decision.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

The nasa report promises anonymity (with limited exceptions). Don't negate it's benefit by passing it around,be specially to investigators. Now it's a statement they CAN use against you.

I've been told not to put anything that could be seen as a regulation violation in the title, as well.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Of course a student certificate is a certificate, but the question was about a pre-solo student, who might or might not have even a student certificate. And wouldn't you consider the conduct you describe as "really egregious" anyway?