IFR instructions read back/copy/what did he say?

[bc2209]

Recently I was able to fly a number of IFR cross-country flights (more than I have ever done in two years of flying ). Now, this is coming from learning to fly in a place that has very little actual IMC days, and also the fact that I am a brand new CFI-I.

Flying these real IFR flights got me really excited and intrigued to "real world" flying, as opposed to going out and doing routine stalls, slow flight, steep turn, routine that I become accustom to. But I also quickly learned that there is a big difference in the two regarding how much trouble, or how easy it would be to make a controller a little peeved.

It was exciting and eye opening as well. I learned many things along the way. I've screwed up but also grew each and every time which is probably the best part. Building and learning each and every time.

One thing that really got to me and bugged me was remembering an altitude change, heading change, join victor airway so and so, freq change, and maybe all of them at the same time.

I got really good at reading them back but then my mind would blank after reading it all back and I'd sit there and say, well crap, what was that heading and altitude again?

So my quick fix was to write almost everything down in some kind of short hand and then repeat it, knowing that if I did forget, I had it scribbled down on my knee board.

I can also remember a time that I couldn't copy or read back frequency changes and always admired the big boys reading back freq changes with ease. Of course now that is simple to do. Perhaps it just takes more time and practice just like reading back freq changes did.

My question is for all you guys who have experience and fly the IFR routes day in and day out, do you even bother writing down the en route instructions, or changes anymore? Or can you just remember it all well enough that it just sticks.

What makes me nervous would be reading back a heading change and then actually flying it incorrectly, and getting a deviation all the while thinking I was actually doing everything correct. Or something to that extent.

Since I haven't flown with anyone else besides myself and students, I'm not sure what the common practice is.

Help!

Thank you.

 

[web265]

Just a suggestion from someone who has been where you are. I wrote it down in shorthand i.e. H 310 A 065 ETC, for a little while, then when I got more comfortable, I stopped writing it down. Secondly, if you are EVER, unsure of what you were told, have it repeated/clarified. Better to peeve a controller a little then miss an altitude! Over time it gets easier.

I've been flying for 20+ yrs (but not all that experienced) and still write down every taxi clearance at unfamiliar fields.

 

[Jordan93]

Practice, practice, and more practice. The only thing I write down when I'm IFR is my clearance and if I'm going to an unfamiliar airport, the taxi instructions. After I read back the clearance, read back, instruction, etc I'll verbally say it out loud after and enter it in the PFD or MFD. Single pilot IFR is a real challenge but the more you practice, the easier it gets.

 

[tbstanto]

Just remember, the "big boys" are sitting in the flight deck next to someone else that can help to remember things. Also, they have "altitude selectors" and a heading knob that we can easily spin when given a change. As far as frequency changes, when I am the pilot monitoring, I usually have the frequency already in standby when I start reading it back. If they tell me to "contact approach on 123.75", I read it back immediately, but have already spun in 123 by the time that they finish, and am putting the .75 in as I am reading it back.

But, as @Jordan93 said, practice, practice, practice.

My favorite is "Callsign 1234, turn left 330, descend and maintain 4000, intercept the localizer, cleared for the ILS 36R, maintain 190 knots to BLAHA". That is a LOT to handle all at once, especially the first time going into somewhere unfamiliar. After awhile, you know that they are going to give you a heading of 330 when you are approaching from that particular direction and have already been told to expect 36R. So, really, you are only confirming what you are already expecting to hear and wether you have been cleared for the approach or just to join.

 

[IslandFlyer]

Use shorthand for a while. After that, you kinda know what to expect and what particular sequence.

Sometimes ATC will assign multiple instructions like the above person mentioned, and usually I'll just say "yeah, I didn't get all that can you repeat for NXYZ" and have a pen standing by.

My pea brain can only handle about 3 instructions at a time.

"NXYZ following southwest 737 on 3 mile final turn left heading 330 maintain 2300 till established cleared ILS 35R 180knots till MEEOW contact not so busy tower on 11875 have a good night" can be a little much.

As mentioned above, always clarify when in doubt. If I missed a frequency, I'm okay with getting the other pilots input and trying what he heard. If it's something like a heading or altitude, if one of us are in doubt, I'll always clarify with ATC.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Continue to use your "quick fix". There is no reason in the world why you shouldn't write it down. As others said, use a shorthand for route changes - the same shorthand you may already be using for taking down you initial clearance.

After a while, many people kind of get used to memorizing altitudes and headings and frequencies standing alone, at least long enough to bug them or put them in the box, but there's no good reason not to write them down. I don't have a regulatory cite but last I heard pen and paper were still permitted, even in glass cockpits.

When it comes to route amendments, though, recall the old advice on copying clearances. Just take it down as it is given, as thought you were just a stenographer or court reporter. Don't even try to understand it as it is being given; wait until you have it down. Makes sense, doesn't it? You are bound to not get it complete if you are trying t visualize the route. Yeah, if it's a route you've done 100 times, you just know it, but otherwise, it just makes sense to write it down. Don't you do it for your initial clearance? Why not with a route amendment? ATC gives you an amendment in flight and throws in "direct Stuckey" in an unfamiliar area. You never heard of Stuckey, have no idea where it is or its identifier. Do you really expect to memorize the rest of the amendment while you are thinking to yourself "where the heck is that and how do you spell it?"

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

My pea brain can only handle about 3 instructions at a time.

I think I have the same brain.

 

[Hacker15e]

Just remember, the "big boys" are sitting in the flight deck next to someone else that can help to remember things. Also, they have "altitude selectors" and a heading knob that we can easily spin when given a change.

Some "big boys" do this in single-seat cockpits without autopilots, FMSs or altitude selectors, etc. and are going much faster than airliners when they do it. The techniques work regardless of weather you're in a 172 or in the Concorde.

In general, listen to it....write it down....read it back...set your systems....act on the instructions.

The caveat to this is situations where you know what is happening next. "Turn left 150, maintain 3,000 until established on the approach, cleared ILS..." is a format where you know what they're going to say, so I start to turn to the dogleg as soon as the heading is stated, since time is short to get the airplane moving.

 

[SFCC/UND]

Listen to ATC on ground in ORD. You'll get good with instructions quick.

 

[Runincolorado]

Recently flew with 2 very experienced pilots over NYC on our way to Marthas in the flight levels. We had about 3 reroutes on the trip. Both the copilot and myself copied it down and requested repeats as needed.

I tend to copy down changes especially in rental aircraft without heading/altitude bugs.

 

[LISRAREF]

Writing things down is always a great way to do it. As well any type of in flight "reminder" you can use will help too... Heading bugs, Etc.... But like its been said a few times, If your unsure or missed something ask us,... Even if the controller gets pissy he would rather you get it right... Because doing it wrong can have much more serious repercussions for everyone involved.... I work in a busy Center and we are known for shooting instructions out pretty quick... I still try to slow down and break things up because I know what its like on the other side.......

 

[MaRiO FDZ]

One thing that really got to me and bugged me was remembering an altitude change, heading change, join victor airway so and so, freq change, and maybe all of them at the same time.

I got really good at reading them back but then my mind would blank after reading it all back and I'd sit there and say, well crap, what was that heading and altitude again?

So my quick fix was to write almost everything down in some kind of short hand and then repeat it, knowing that if I did forget, I had it scribbled down on my knee board.

I can also remember a time that I couldn't copy or read back frequency changes and always admired the big boys reading back freq changes with ease. Of course now that is simple to do. Perhaps it just takes more time and practice just like reading back freq changes did.

My question is for all you guys who have experience and fly the IFR routes day in and day out, do you even bother writing down the en route instructions, or changes anymore? Or can you just remember it all well enough that it just sticks.

What makes me nervous would be reading back a heading change and then actually flying it incorrectly, and getting a deviation all the while thinking I was actually doing everything correct. Or something to that extent.
[...]
Help!

Thank you.

Me being on the other side of the spectrum - flying IFR unless there is no way around it - I could say you'll get used to it. Back when I started working I also tried to write down everything, then my father told me "use your instrument bugs, heading, altitude, HSI CRS, etc. Use every tool at your disposal". Eventually, (and pretty soon I might add) you'll get a feel of when you're gonna get such and such frequency or a vector.

The only things I write down nowadays are ATIS, initial Clearance (CRAFT), holding instructions or route clearance amendments. Before takeoff the entire route is programmed in e GPS, and afterwards everything else I use heading or altitude bugs as instruction reminders. That way I can come back to an instruction later, and, given I fly mostly with the Autopilot on NAV GPS mode, I know it won't react unless I take it out of such mode, and that's also it is my personal Queue that I'm being vectored. Likewise with altitude, the autopilot won't change altitude unless you tell it how to do so. Other reminders I use are strobes for cleared into or to cross a runway, Landing lights for TakeOff/Landing Clearance, and a circled letter on my notepad for current ATIS.

Hope this helps! Take Care

 

[JustinS]

A lot of good info here. I pretty much do a lot of what the guys here say. I'm always halfway through putting in the new frequency before ATC is done telling me who to contact, and by the time I read it all back I've got it dialed in. I usually group things into my head. Like on an approach clearance they usually give you a heading that's a 30 degree intercept, the altitude they tell you to maintain until established is usually either the one you're at, or lowest MEA for the segment of the approach they're clearing you onto, and the approach you're being cleared for is obviously the one you've briefed and have put your game face on to fly. Speeds to a fix on the IAP are common sometimes. When they tell me to switch to tower on 1##.## I already have that frequency loaded in the standby radio frequency.

As far as headings and altitudes I dial it in/execute it before they're even done telling me what they want. While I was a CFI that was one of my pet peeves was students waiting to start a turn or sometimes a decent until they were finished with reading it back to ATC. This could sometimes mean shooting through GS and having to descend back down to it to intercept, or shooting through the localizer on a tight vector, etc. Or tower saying "no delay cleared for takeoff," and student slowly nudges the throttle forward AFTER reading back the full instruction. Granted there is a time, place and skill level required to be able to Aviate WHILE communicating, but I think by some point in your training or in your career you should be able to anticipate what's going to come next and react properly and timely.

Another thing that helps me is grouping numbers together. Like it's easier for me to remember "thirty-five, twenty-five" than it is to remember "one three five point two five." For frequencies.

3 instructions in one call is usually in my capacity, 4 I'll usually get, but 4-5 instructions can be overwhelming, and in juggling all that info in my head long enough to read it back, I may be half way through reading it back I'll just say "I'm sorry what was that speed again?" Just the other night I heard "one of the big boys" go "tower 133.3 see yah, uhhh what was the frequency again?" It happens to the best of us so don't get too hung up on something if you goof the call/forget. Just ask again, and ignore the controller's tone if he gets annoyed. You're doing your due diligence to make sure you've received and communicated the correct information. If you totally missed an instruction don't be afraid to say "say again."

If it comes to something that I think I'll forget, and is not information I can readily input somewhere, I'll definitely not hesitate to write it down.

With lots of practice, and experiences on the radios that get you burned (such as a controller snapping at you) will shape you into being a pilot that knows what's coming next and you're mentally prepared to fill in the blanks with proper information for your reply. Hope this helps. The IFR system, and working with ATC is one of my favorite parts of the job. Talking on the radios is a skill, art, and a fun challenge. Make the most of it, and you'll continually improve.

In this career, you'll get good at storing lots of information, numbers letters and fixes in your short term memory for disemination to other crew members, ATC, etc.

Hope this helps!