I learned about aviation from... TMAAT...

[scooter2525]

I started keeping a quarter in my bag and if a captain did that, I'd just call heads or tails and flip it. Less awkward that way.

I always ask what they did last.

 

[ERfly]

Ours is all electronic. Most CA and FOs sign even before showing up to the airplane.

Ours are, too. I guess I should have put "sign" in quotation marks.

 

[///AMG]

Reality is, a lotta newhires are CAs who left their job, and now they are FO at this new shop. Some can handle that fine. Others, they can’t. It’s a tough transition for them. You can tell when they are trying to be right seat CAs, and it gets annoying real fast.


I honestly think we ought to spend time in initial and recurrent really diving into what it means to be a team, and what it means that there is one PIC. I would have thought it’s common sense. Apparently it isn’t.

I get what you are saying here in terms of your justification, but as a counterpoint, my entire flying career has involved me signing for the airplane (aside from flight training). Basically 100% PIC time until I came to 121 and landed in the right seat. I even had a backseater for the last 5 years leading up to that, who was a non-pilot aviator. I've got no problem letting El Capitan exercise their judgement. Maybe that is because this is all new to me, and I'm eager to learn. But I think it is more along the lines that those types have a problem. Your last statement is spot on. It should be common sense. Though I also struggle to think of a single scenario I've been involved in where this even became a relevant subject. To the point of being a "team", it's bizarre to think of that teamwork degrading to the point where some debate has become heated enough to require the PIC to tell the other guy to shut up and color. A little bit of tact in the right seat can go a long way towards avoiding these scenarios (and I guess the left seat too, though I have yet to run across a CA who needed to make that flex).

 

[///AMG]

So my last month as an FO I had all evening turns to PSP and SNA. The universe, in its infinite cruelty gave me the line I wanted the month before I was going to upgrade. I'll never see that again. Anyway I was doing the same PSP turns every night one week and there was bad weather in PSP very cold and almost snowing, it was February. The captain wasn't around when the fueler showed up in SEA. They were giving us load permitting fuel and I knew we would get wing frost because we were going to tanker fuel. So I called dispatch and asked that we didn't tanker fuel to PSP because there was no de ice capability in PSP. As soon as the captain showed I told him what I did and why and told him the fuel truck was still there so he could change it if he wanted. He seemed pretty pleased with the decision and it was a non event.

Seems pretty smart and I am not that smart yet

On the note of fuel, I recently flew a day turn with a super senior guy, and each leg he made it a point to ask me if I was good with the fuel load. Had never been posed that question before. It was so out of the blue that I stumbled back through the release to make sure I wasn't missing something somewhere, before I said "yep". But I thought that was cool. I like to be engaged in the operation anyway, but that seemed like a good way to make an FO feel like they are part of the team.

 

[Boots2Wings]

I dunno if this helps, but I did a 3 day with an FO who didn’t tip the van drivers on the two layovers. Like didn’t even attempt to make excuses or say something.

Grabbed her bags and went into the hotel. It really irked me. We represent the profession and it makes us all look bad. But I was too much of a knob to say something and wish I had. That’s it.

I’m also younger than 95% of the FOs I fly with and I feel like it’s kinda a weird dynamic.

I’m still trying to figure it all out.

I will just say, as a new FO in 121, despite having almost a decade flying for work, this wasn’t something i anticipated until I had the absolutely horrid feeling of the Capt on my IOE slipping me 2$ to give the driver, realizing this was a “thing”.

I tip well above standard at restaurants, work jobs etc, but had never considered vans in that sense. I thought of it more as an extension of the company’s operations…which is not the case.

If I had to offer any real advice to someone developing a program to new pilots in 121; focus on what existing training doesnt cover.

Flying a plane is easy…its the secondary tasks of our profession, and the “unwritten” rules thats are the real shockers.

Commuting
Layovers
Bidding
Crashpads
Etc.

Sometimes those #%*# eating experiences are the best though…after that IOE trip, my first stop on the way to the airport is my local 7-11 to pull out 10$ in ones…

 

[Ian_J]

Seems pretty smart and I am not that smart yet

On the note of fuel, I recently flew a day turn with a super senior guy, and each leg he made it a point to ask me if I was good with the fuel load. Had never been posed that question before. It was so out of the blue that I stumbled back through the release to make sure I wasn't missing something somewhere, before I said "yep". But I thought that was cool. I like to be engaged in the operation anyway, but that seemed like a good way to make an FO feel like they are part of the team.

It’s really interesting how different shops can be. I’d say at my place anecdotally 90% or so ask if the FO is good with the fuel.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

It’s really interesting how different shops can be. I’d say at my place anecdotally 90% or so ask if the FO is good with the fuel.

If it’s the FO flying I phrase it differently and ask them to come up with a number. I’d say 50% of the time if you ask if they are good with the fuel they just say yes even if they haven’t looked at it yet.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Seems pretty smart and I am not that smart yet

On the note of fuel, I recently flew a day turn with a super senior guy, and each leg he made it a point to ask me if I was good with the fuel load. Had never been posed that question before. It was so out of the blue that I stumbled back through the release to make sure I wasn't missing something somewhere, before I said "yep". But I thought that was cool. I like to be engaged in the operation anyway, but that seemed like a good way to make an FO feel like they are part of the team.

I'm going to give this a try.

 

[Ian_J]

If it’s the FO flying I phrase it differently and ask them to come up with a number. I’d say 50% of the time if you ask if they are good with the fuel they just say yes even if they haven’t looked at it yet.

Nice.

As an FO I usually responded with the conditions (wx/traffic/delays etc) that make me comfortable with the planned fuel or as a reason to put on more.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I'm going to give this a try.

Just because a widebody international guy does that doesn’t mean domestic 737 pilots have to. My guess would be, you’ll be taking more fuel than flight plan more of the time.


At VX, we had a rule that we could add 1,000 lbs of fuel above flight plan without asking dispatch. You wouldn’t believe the amount of guys who would just arbitrarily ask for 1,000 lbs extra, every leg, every day.


What’s that saying? Runway behind you use useless, so is the fuel left back in the fuel truck.

I will suggest to you there are personalities who will always say yes to extra fuel, and have you take on 1,000 lbs or more.

I’ve only been Capt since 2018, and I’ve had a fuel divert one time only - and that was a flight already maxed out on full fuel from JFK to SFO. At least as a LA based pilot, I’ve not seen fuel be an issue as far as dispatch planning. Per year, I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve had to add extra fuel above flight plan (annually). Recent examples, 2 were to ORD, and 1 was GEG to SEA where it had us landing with a planned FOA of 4.8

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Just because a widebody international guy does that doesn’t mean domestic 737 pilots have to. My guess would be, you’ll be taking more fuel than flight plan more of the time.


At VX, we had a rule that we could add 1,000 lbs of fuel above flight plan without asking dispatch. You wouldn’t believe the amount of guys who would just arbitrarily ask for 1,000 lbs extra, every leg, every day.


What’s that saying? Runway behind you use useless, so is the fuel left back in the fuel truck.

I will suggest to you there are personalities who will always say yes to extra fuel, and have you take on 1,000 lbs or more.

I’ve only been Capt since 2018, and I’ve had a fuel divert one time only - and that was a flight already maxed out on full fuel from JFK to SFO. At least as a LA based pilot, I’ve not seen fuel be an issue as far as dispatch planning.

I think I can count on one hand the times I've landed with less than 10K of gas lol. It's always tanker here or there. The one time I got involved with fuel that I mentioned on this thread was because we were going to land at PSP with so much gas we would get fuel frost and it was so cold the ice wouldn't melt and it was a station that didn't have de ice. I jokingly mention to FOs that my only gripe about fuel is they give us so damn much.

But I think asking about the release in general and teambuilding from there could be good for CRM.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I get what you are saying here in terms of your justification, but as a counterpoint, my entire flying career has involved me signing for the airplane (aside from flight training). Basically 100% PIC time until I came to 121 and landed in the right seat. I even had a backseater for the last 5 years leading up to that, who was a non-pilot aviator. I've got no problem letting El Capitan exercise their judgement. Maybe that is because this is all new to me, and I'm eager to learn. But I think it is more along the lines that those types have a problem. Your last statement is spot on. It should be common sense. Though I also struggle to think of a single scenario I've been involved in where this even became a relevant subject. To the point of being a "team", it's bizarre to think of that teamwork degrading to the point where some debate has become heated enough to require the PIC to tell the other guy to shut up and color. A little bit of tact in the right seat can go a long way towards avoiding these scenarios (and I guess the left seat too, though I have yet to run across a CA who needed to make that flex).

Military guys have been the exception. I think largely because it’s a very structured, rank job, and they are especially used to a commander system where said commander could be younger.. Anecdotal, but every military pilot I’ve flown with knew the line between CA and FO, and strived to learn about 121 ops.

 

[Ian_J]

Just because a widebody international guy does that doesn’t mean domestic 737 pilots have to. My guess would be, you’ll be taking more fuel than flight plan more of the time.

At my shop most 737 CAs ask the FO about fuel. Your guess would be wrong here.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

At my shop most 737 CAs ask the FO about fuel. Your guess would be wrong here.

To each their own. Personally, sounds like your shop doesn’t put too much faith into your dispatch planning software.


We fly that same plane to the same cities. It really shouldn’t be a problem. Maybe 4-5 times in a year I’ll add extra gas. Our planning software here is pretty robust. No complaints.

In fact, dare I say, there are times I think we are going with more than necessary.

 

[ERfly]

To each their own. Personally, sounds like your shop doesn’t put too much faith into your dispatch planning software.


We fly that same plane to the same cities. It really shouldn’t be a problem. Maybe 4-5 times in a year I’ll add extra gas. Our planning software here is pretty robust. No complaints.

In fact, dare I say, there are times I think we are going with more than necessary.

Is that before or after you RUN to your next flight following an incident or emergency?

Jesus, sometimes just stop berating every single pilot. By now, we all know that we're not even remotely as awesome as you are, captain (proper capitalization) and we never will be. Please just shut up and let people fly their own airplanes.

The dispatch software (and the dispatcher) is sitting in a nice comfy chair in an air conditioned room on the ground. They're not planning on flying into the busiest cargo airport in the country, in the middle of the sort, with thunderstorms building, gusty winds, possible wind shear, potential go arounds and a 35-mile file on a "2 South" configuration.

At my "shop" no one, not one dispatcher, Fleet Captain or fellow pilot would question a crew's decision to had a couple thousand more pounds.

Step away from the keyboard for 5 minutes and go have some Sbarro's.

Where's the Tylenol?

 

[Ian_J]

To each their own. Personally, sounds like your shop doesn’t put too much faith into your dispatch planning software.


We fly that same plane to the same cities. It really shouldn’t be a problem. Maybe 4-5 times in a year I’ll add extra gas. Our planning software here is pretty robust. No complaints.

In fact, dare I say, there are times I think we are going with more than necessary.

You are very much missing the point and are deflecting.

Person 1: I ask the FO if they’re good with the gas.

Person 2: Good idea, I might start doing that.

You: Yeah but then FOs are going to start asking for useless extra gas.

Me: Not really.

You: Dispatch software. (??)

Consider just for a second that asking a first officer about the fuel is not only good for CRM, but also develops them to start looking closely at the fuel. You know, mentoring.

It is that 4 - 5 times a year that counts. 99% of the time and FO is probably going to say that they are good with the gas.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Is that before or after you RUN to your next flight following an incident or emergency?

Jesus, sometimes just stop berating every single pilot. By now, we all know that we're not even remotely as awesome as you are, captain (proper capitalization) and we never will be. Please just shut up and let people fly their own airplanes.

The dispatch software (and the dispatcher) is sitting in a nice comfy chair in an air conditioned room on the ground. They're not planning on flying into the busiest cargo airport in the country, in the middle of the sort, with thunderstorms building, gusty winds, possible wind shear, potential go arounds and a 35-mile file on a "2 South" configuration.

At my "shop" no one, not one dispatcher, Fleet Captain or fellow pilot would question a crew's decision to had a couple thousand more pounds.

Step away from the keyboard for 5 minutes and go have some Sbarro's.

Where's the Tylenol?

Which is why I literally said, "to each their own."


And like a typical pilot, thank you for writing off dispatchers as good for nothing, sitting in AC rooms on a leather seat, bumbling about.

ALL the things you mentioned would be accounted for in the Delay and Extra fuel. And good dispatchers add to account for what you mentioned. Rarely at my shop is there a need to add extra.

I’m not super Captain. I just don’t see the need for every leg to ask the FO for if they want more gas. And yes, no one would question a decision to add more gas.

I gave you data. In one year, it’s about 4-5 times max I had to add extra fuel above beyond the flight plan dispatch fuel. They do a good job here with delay and extra fuel. You didn’t give data in return, instead you just personal attacked.

 

[ASpilot2be]

Oh no! Is captain better than you at it again?

 

[derg]

Are you guys really surprised?


This was not me. What better example than a virtual airline that made the news when a plane had to go back to the gate because the CA and FO couldn't get along? It was over the fuel load of a flight from DC to LAX.

Imagine. Being a FO and feeling so strongly about the flight plan fuel, that it ends up killing CRM and both want off the plane.




Me, when I was FO? This is how it would have played out:


"Hey Cap, how do you feel about the flight plan fuel? There's a lotta WX around here and we are landing with X.X fuel on arrival."


Capt: "Nah, it's all good, flight plan load is fine."

Me: "Ok"




Two scenarios:

Land LAX: [nothing more needs to be said]


Divert PHX or LAS for a fuel stop:

Me: "So Cap, probably should have taken that extra fuel in DC eh?"


[take off again, go to LAX, call it good]



I wouldn't for the life of me fathom walking off over a disagreement on the dispatch-planned fuel load. And if scenario 2 happened, that CA probably learned a lesson.

I stepped off an airplane once!

Long story short, we were in VCE. Inbound jet's radar went inoperative in flight and it had to be functional for our operation flying westbound back to the states.

No parts in VCE. Last FCO flight to VCE already left, there was no way to get the part in time for departure. The plan was to fly from VCE to FRA, do a 'hot swap' on the controller box, run a test, then continue on to JFK -- we were augmented and had enough time to make it legal.

I"m running some numbers just to be safe and it appears that we're going to land in FRA "significantly" over max landing weight with our current fuel load.

Offload fuel? "Takes too long, we're good."

I look over at the other FO and he was one of the senior types that couldn't give less of a poop and was anywhere from indifferent to completely deferential to authority.

"We're not legal, as planned"

"Maintenance says we're going, we're going"

"I'm not comfortable, I don't understand how planning to land significantly (50K?) over max landing weight is legal or prudent, was dispatch ok?"

"Didn't talk to dispatch"

So I grabbed my stuff and started walking off the airplane, the captain got PISSED and demanded to know what I was doing and I said that I'm taking myself off the flight and will see if crew scheduling can find another FO in FRA (lots of flights there) to take my place, I'm concerned and unsure of how this is legal. It's OK"

About 20 seconds later, the gate agent runs down to the jetway and says that flight control had cancelled the flight because we weren't legal for dispatch with our fuel situation and we'd have a part in the morning.

No apology, or thanks, or anything other than him being red-faced and stomping around like an angry 9 year old when you say "no more video games".



I'm sure I've told that story before on JC, I don't know.

 

[BobDDuck]

I stepped off an airplane once!

Long story short, we were in VCE. Inbound jet's radar went inoperative in flight and it had to be functional for our operation flying westbound back to the states.

No parts in VCE. Last FCO flight to VCE already left, there was no way to get the part in time for departure. The plan was to fly from VCE to FRA, do a 'hot swap' on the controller box, run a test, then continue on to JFK -- we were augmented and had enough time to make it legal.

I"m running some numbers just to be safe and it appears that we're going to land in FRA "significantly" over max landing weight with our current fuel load.

Offload fuel? "Takes too long, we're good."

I look over at the other FO and he was one of the senior types that couldn't give less of a poop and was anywhere from indifferent to completely deferential to authority.

"We're not legal, as planned"

"Maintenance says we're going, we're going"

"



I'm sure I've told that story before on JC, I don't know.

I actually hadn't heard it before.

Good reminder that as hard as saying stop is, you've still got to be ready to do it in any seat.